The Intersection of Faith and Education | Interview with Dean Jonathan Walton

Jed’s Interview with Dean Jonathan Walton

Interview Transcript

(Editor’s Note: The following transcript has been lightly edited to improve clarity.)

0:00:14.5Tell us a little bit about your academic journey?

Jed: Hi, this is Dr. Jed Macosko at AcademicInfluence and Wake Forest University Department of Physics. And today I have with me a very special guest, Dean Jonathan Walton, who has been the Dean of our Divinity School for a while now, and is now moving on to be the president of Princeton Theological Seminary. So that’s an exciting move, but Dean Walton, could you tell us a little bit about your academic journey? Like, how did you end up at this place?

Dean Jonathan Walton: Oh, a lot of prayers and God’s grace. But first of all, let me just thank you, Jed, for having me on here. I really appreciate this and I appreciate your intellectual curiosity and your joy. It is absolutely contagious in all of the right ways. So, thank you. But yeah, I ended up as a scholar of religion. You know, some would say that I was a church kid that read a lot or someone that just had a lot of questions about matters of faith and politics and what we owe the world. I was raised in a kind of post-civil rights context in Atlanta, and where that history, particularly civil rights history and social activism and that of the evangelical tradition, was kind of a sacred history in my household.

And so, when I went to Morehouse College, that was kind of a place where I was marinated in this rich tradition of blending faith with what God requires of us, doing justice, loving mercy, right? And our commitment to creating the conditions of a just and equitable society. And then from there, graduate school and just continue to ask questions. And so, again, I was only half speaking in jest when I said a lot of prayers and a lot of God’s grace.

Jed: No, it definitely seems like that. You were born in the right place, in the right time to be thinking about the intersection of God and society. It’s just a perfect place to be doing that. But academics, I mean, that’s a little different. Martin Luther King Jr didn’t pursue a professorate somewhere or the president of some university somewhere. But how did you get into that?

Dean Jonathan Walton: But he was very much informed by those who had. And so, you know, it was being influenced by traditions like someone like a Benjamin Elijah Mays, who was the longtime president of Morehouse College, a direct influence on Martin Luther King Jr. And was a sociologist of religion trained out of the University of Chicago. And really what I would say, whether we’re talking about an Ella Baker, Martin Luther King Jr, Fannie Lou Hamer, what we’re talking about are educators. We’re talking about people, whether they use the pulpit or use the classroom, whether they use their organizing spaces in community of faith basements, or whether it’s from a institution of higher education, institution of higher learning. These were educators committed to asking the big questions, sometimes embarrassing questions about life. And really, that is the tradition that I would say has most shaped and informed me.

Jed: Okay. So you were just really following the footsteps of people who wanted to ask questions and it led you to be who you are today, fully in the ivory tower in academia, but still asking those questions.

Dean Jonathan Walton: And the reason I give that answer, even in that way, is because in some ways I try to disrupt this kind of a binary, right? Between fully immersed in the ivory tower, which has a particular signification, right? That one is separated, that one is somehow aloof versus activism. Those who are involved in everyday real politic. Right? You know, these kind of... I think those are false binaries in some ways. And the tradition that I would say probably has most informed me, you had people that were doing both at the highest level. They were asking the big questions. They were trying to expand knowledge and ways of knowing, but they were also involved in the nitty gritty realities and trying to help change the structural conditions of a society.

0:05:20.5Why is it important for young people to be thinking about the spiritual side of life?

Jed: Yeah, no, they really were. And it seems like you can follow in those footsteps and have been. Now, for the young crowd, which is most of our audience, because we help people find universities that are good fits for them at AcademicInfluence.com. They’re going to wonder, like, well, why should I be concerned about spiritual issues if what I really want to do is change the world? So, why is it important for young people... I mean, you and I both have college age kids. Why is it important for those young people to be thinking about the spiritual side of life?

Dean Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean, when we’re talking about religion, really, we’re talking about ultimate values, ultimate concerns. We’re talking about the things that animate us. And so, one... Just like politics, one can talk about politics, one can talk about religion and it’d be amoral. But you cannot talk about moral concerns and ethical questions and not have to take seriously. Right? Political implications and the varying belief systems that inform how you view the world. And so, therefore, the study of religion, for example, it’s the study of this grand faith traditions, that for good and for ill have shaped generations. How we think about knowledge, how we think about questions about, say, eudaimonia, the good life, or what the world requires of us? And so, to wrestle with religion, to wrestle with spirituality, that’s at the heart of wrestling with the big questions. Why am I here? And when I figure out why I’m here, right? Figuring out what I do with the gifts that I have. That’s the meaning of life, my friend. It’s the core of education.

0:07:32.9How would you encourage a young person to approach religion?

Jed: Yeah, I can see that. I could definitely see that. Well, I mean, it definitely makes me as a scientist wonder that, you know, if a person takes seriously their liberal arts education, learns about biology, physics, chemistry, where the origin of life happened in some warm little pond, as Charles Darwin said, and then does what you’re talking about and studies religions, so that they can understand why people have the values that they have, they’re going to study religion as if it’s not true. But I need to know about it, because I need to know why these people have the values they do. Is that a good way to approach the study of religion or how would you encourage a young person to approach religion?

Dean Jonathan Walton: Oh, I would... Well, one of the first things I would do, I would wrestle with so many ways that so many philosophers of religion have wrestled with the question of what we even mean by truth? And so when we say, oh, well, that’s not true. Right? You know, this is... This kind of fact fiction dichotomy. Because there’s so many different types of truths in the world. So there, for example, I mean, there’s moral truth. Generations have been informed and of the love, the writings of CS Lewis. I don’t know of anybody who necessarily believes in talking lions, but that doesn’t mean that the lessons of Aslan have not conveyed deep, profound truths about the human condition. Or there’s things like, you know, aesthetic truth, beauty. Questions of beauty. I would never question the fact, Jed, that you are married to the most beautiful woman in the world. As am I. Or there’s some things that I can’t explain. I can’t explain that why every time I hear Luther Vandross sing, A House is Not a Home, or I hear Aretha Franklin’s rendition of Amazing Grace, I get goosebumps and it transports me to a space and a time that is inexplicable. It shapes my moral imagination. I can’t necessarily explain it. I can’t put that under a microscope, but I know it’s true. And so, it’s... So these are the ways that when we’re talking about truth, we have to have more capacious definitions. And that’s what I think of the broad based liberal arts education offers us.

0:10:27.2What do you think you can add to the seminary?

Jed: I think it does. And I’m glad that I get to be a part of that. And Princeton is fully immersed in that. That’s why I’m glad you’re up in that part of the woods. Now, speaking of Princeton, you are one of, I don’t know how many presidents of Princeton Theological Seminary, but there’s been some amazing ones. So, what do you think you can add to the seminary? And does that... Whatever the president adds to the seminary, does that spill over into the undergraduate Princeton population? Or do you guys keep yourselves pretty separate, so that what you do, will it ever affect the liberal arts education that those undergraduates are getting? And what’s your vision for what you’re going to do? That’s a big question, but maybe you can just give us a foretaste of what you plan on doing up there.

Dean Jonathan Walton: Well, Princeton’s Theological Seminary is a different institution than Princeton University. They’re neighbors right there on the campus. And for many of the graduate students, they find mutual support and intellectual stimulation across the street. But they are separate institutions. And so, I just wanted to be clear on that. And you’re right, there have been some incredible, amazing presidents, but more importantly, the faculty of Princeton Theological Seminary. Right now, it’s about as dynamic and diverse as it’s ever been in its rich history. And so, being able to, like previous presidents, leverage that amazing learning community, right? To help shape the world is part of a task. But I also know that we’re... I’m living in a different context and we’re going to face different realities of the future than previous presidents had to face. I mean, we have this matters of disaffiliation in American society, right? The kind of decline of religious attendance in American society. These are all things that are changing the nature of what we call, “church.” But we also know that with decline of affiliation and decline of church attendance, we’re also seeing the rise of these varying diseases of despair, alienation, anxiety, depression, right? That are leading to deaths of despair. And there’s direct correlations between religious affiliation, positive religious affiliation, right? And keeping at bay anxiety, despair. And so, communities of faith have something to offer the larger context now. We just have to find new and creative ways to engage, because the days of just opening the doors of the church under a tall steeple and expecting people to come, that’s not our reality anymore. But that doesn’t mean that people aren’t still seeking and asking the questions of ultimate value, ultimate concern, and what does God have to say about our human condition?

0:13:35.9Does a diverse group of faculty and the specific challenges faced in our world today change how you approach being president?

Jed: So if you’re doing something different than your presidential... You know, people who came before you, it would be because you have a more diverse group of faculty working with you than ever before, and because the challenges that are faced in our world today are different. So you’re going to have a little bit of difference from all your predecessors because of those two things. Is that what you’re saying?

Dean Jonathan Walton: Oh, absolutely. That’s exactly what I’m saying. And that was true of every president that has ever stepped into the role. And our conceptions of the world, and our conceptions of who belongs and our conceptions of intellectual value and theological merit have expanded in incredibly productive ways. So, just as one example, I talked about the decline of religious attendance in the United States and American society, and we often look to Europe, right? As we know, kind of the rise of secularization over the last half of the 20th century in Europe. But we haven’t done a great job of taking seriously the global south and the amazing, the amazing work, the amazing theological insight that is emerging from theologians and thinkers in the global south, and the very productive communities of faith that are emerging there. So that is one of the things that I think that as... That all of our schools, whether it was Wake Forest Divinity or Princeton Theological Seminary, that we have to expand our conversation partners.

0:15:20.7What are you going to take with you from Wake Forest University?

Jed: That sounds great. Wow. So, what did you learn at Wake that you’re going to kind of carry with you? You were only here a few short years. It definitely did not seem long enough, but you must have learned a few things. So, what are you going to take with you? And we’ll sorta end on that question.

Dean Jonathan Walton: Oh. I mean, the incredible work that Wake Forest... I mean, Pro Humanitate, right? That we are doing, the questions we ask, the research, the expansion of knowledge. It is for humanity. Being so crystal clear on that Telos, on that end goal, on that aim of our work. That is something that I think that we should never lose sight of. My... A former mentor of mine used to talk about Veritas truth. And she would say that truth is not value neutral. That truth and our pursuit of truth, it should have a name. It should have an end. And that is informed by our values. And that is one of the things that I’ve been so impressed about Wake Forest is the way that it’s clear and unapologetic about its values.

Jed: That’s really cool. Well, that is a great place to end. And I like how you say we at Wake Forest, because once a Demon Deacon, always a Demon Deacon. So we’re going to claim you as our own from now until the end. And we really appreciate that you took some time to talk with us today. And I think the students who watch this will be extremely blessed by what you had to say. So, thank you so much, Dean Walton.

Dean Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for having me.